Nobody tells you in high school that instructional design is a career. Andrew Fassett spent seven years as a combat engineer officer in the Marine Corps, then went to seminary, then started asking why the church was training people the same way it had always trained them while corporate learning had moved on entirely. Emily Johnson spent three years teaching middle school science, watching students without the right support get lost in lessons that were not designed for the range of learners in the room, and eventually decided she could do more from the other side of the curriculum.
Neither of them had a straight line to get here. Neither of them set out for this field. And both of them arrived, as most learning professionals do, because they saw something broken and decided to try to fix it.
That origin story, Jason Gorman notes on The Learning Experience Ops Show, is almost universal in the field. Nobody becomes an instructional designer the way someone becomes a lawyer or an accountant. They find their way in through a door that nobody else thought to use, carrying skills from somewhere else entirely, and only later realizing those skills were exactly what the work required.
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What You Carry With You
Fassett brought two things with him from the military that still run through everything he builds. The first is a deep belief in the value of interpersonal presence. As a chaplain in the Massachusetts Army National Guard, he has spent years being present with people in difficult moments. Listening without an agenda, staying with someone in their experience, genuinely caring about what they are going through. These, he argues, are not soft skills. They are the foundation of everything.
“One of the things that can come across with interpersonal skills is: I can do this technique,” he says. “But do I actually care about the other person? That comes from actually valuing them. And that becomes the seed that then comes out in how we are actually treating them.”
The second thing he brought from the military is a granular understanding of simulation as a training methodology. When you are preparing people for high-stakes, low-frequency scenarios, you cannot just throw them into the real thing and hope they figure it out. You build up through graduated exposures: tactical games, sand tables, smaller pieces of the bigger task. You create practice environments where failure is safe and feedback is immediate.
He is now applying exactly that logic to something very different: helping Christians have conversations about faith. His platform, Kairos Ready, uses AI characters and AI feedback to build the interpersonal skills, active listening, curious questioning, mutual vulnerability, that those conversations require. Not a script. Not a checklist. An actual practice space for something that most people avoid because the stakes feel too high.
Johnson brought something quieter but equally specific: a first-person understanding of what it feels like to be a learner who is not being adequately supported. In her teaching years, she was working with students who were struggling with reading and writing in a science class, students who were getting lost in content that was not designed for the range of people actually in the room. That experience gave her a lens she cannot take off.
“I really just see myself reflected back in it,” she says of the differentiation work she does now at McGraw-Hill. “That’s the one I really get lost in.”
What the Field Still Has Not Figured Out
One of the most honest exchanges in the episode comes when Gorman asks both guests what an ideal training path for a learning professional would look like. Both answer with some version of the same thing: more real work, earlier.
Johnson describes an intern at her company who spent a summer building an onboarding module from scratch and presented it to the entire organization. That, she says, is the kind of experience that changes what a student is capable of. Not theory. Not simulated projects. Actual work that actual people will use.
Fassett pushes the idea further. Why couldn’t an instructional design program be run like a business that charges a lot less and works on real client projects? Why does the education have to be separate from the work? The apprenticeship model, where you shadow a practitioner, sit in SME interviews just to observe, ask five minutes of follow-up questions afterward, and gradually work toward doing pieces of the work yourself, is not a fantasy. It is just not how most programs are currently structured.
The underlying tension they are both pointing at is real. The field has a judgment gap. With AI absorbing much of the entry-level content production work, the traditional pathway through which junior professionals developed their discernment, doing the repetitive work until they understood why it mattered, is being compressed or eliminated. If you need expertise to direct AI well, and the jobs that used to build that expertise no longer exist in the same form, the pipeline breaks.
“How are you developing that judgment now if those jobs don not exist?” Fassett asks. “We need to kind of wrestle with that as a field.”
AI Is More Possible. That Is Not the Same as Easy.
Both Johnson and Fassett are honest about AI in ways that avoid the usual poles of enthusiasm and anxiety. The opportunity they both see is real: adaptive learning at scale, oral assessment that can now generalize because AI makes it tractable, simulation platforms that a starting designer can build where that would have been unimaginable five years ago.
But Fassett offers a distinction worth sitting with. More possible is not the same as easier. The things that make a learning experience actually work, shaping the AI toward a specific audience and context, applying judgment to what the tool produces, coordinating with people, deciding what is and is not good enough, none of those things have gotten simpler. The generic output of an AI prompt is not the same as the contextually appropriate, audience-specific design that moves the needle for real learners.
“If you’re not really shaping it,” he says, “it’s just gonna give you the generic.”
Johnson’s advice to someone just entering the field is more practical: have an open mind, do not be afraid to fail, and treat failure as data. She wanted to be a teacher from the time she was a child. She tried it and it was not right for her. She tried instructional design and found something she could not imagine leaving. The path was not linear. It did not need to be.
What They Want Senior People to Know
The final question in the episode asks both guests what they would want a more experienced learning professional to understand from where they are standing. It is the kind of question that rarely gets asked and almost never gets a straight answer.
Johnson goes first: do not be afraid of change. The fact that things look different from how they looked twenty years ago is not a problem to be solved. It is the nature of a living field. Human connection is still at the center of everything. That has not changed and is not going to.
Fassett is more direct. “We want to learn from you,” he says. “It’s not this divide between the field or between the new and the old. We’re all in this together. We each have things to offer each other.”
He makes the point that he was in an online program where the only times he was physically present with other people in his cohort were orientation and graduation. The relational infrastructure that used to build professional community through proximity has been hollowed out in a lot of programs, at exactly the moment when that community matters most.
The people entering this field right now have more tools than any previous generation. They also have less runway to develop the judgment those tools require, less access to experienced practitioners who can show them what good looks like up close, and less certainty about what the profession will even require of them in five years.
What they have, as Fassett puts it, is curiosity. And the knowledge that people think about them less than they think.
That combination, it turns out, is enough to start.
Listen to the full conversation with Emily Johnson & Andrew Fassett on The LX Ops Show or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Podcast Transcript– Jason Gorman with Emily Johnson & Andrew Fassett
Jason Gorman (00:00)
Welcome to the Learning Experience Ops show where we talk about making learning better that’s future ready. I’m Jason Gorman, the founder and CEO of Jackrabbit Learning Experience. In one way or another, I’ve been responsible for creating learning experiences for over 25 years. And in that time, a lot’s changed. We understand how people learn in a different way than we did 25 years ago. Our understanding has improved, the research has gotten better.
The tools we use have changed, obviously improved a lot. The processes we follow have evolved. The way we structure our teams, even our titles and the names that we give, the roles that we’re in have changed. But given all that, I don’t think there’s much argument that what we’re going through right now is the biggest shift that learning professionals have ever been through. And I’ve talked a lot about this on this show.
But recently I started thinking about how to get some voices that have really been missing from these conversations onto this show. I really started to think about how do I hear more from people who are just entering these fields or maybe still figuring out if they even want to. I mean, I found myself thinking often, what is this work like for somebody who’s getting going?
What are they thinking about? What matters most to them? And that’s what today’s conversation is all about. I’m really excited because today I’m talking with two people who are newer to this field, but who come with lots of rich experience to the field, like so many people do. They came through classrooms, military service, seminary, and a lot of thinking about what learning can.
And can’t do and should and shouldn’t do. And both of them in their own way got here because they saw something that wasn’t working and they decided to fix it on their own. Emily Johnson is in a master’s program in instructional design at Quinnepeak University and is now an academic designer at McGraw-Hill, where she’s working on a K-to-5 science curriculum. Andrew Fassett has his master’s in instructional design from UMass Boston and is the founder of Kairos Ready.
Where he’s using AI simulation to help people build interpersonal skills. Emily, Andrew, welcome to the show.
Emily Johnson (02:29)
Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Andrew Fassett (02:31)
Thank you, Jason. Excited to be here with you and Emily today.
Jason Gorman (02:34)
All right, well let’s jump in with some lightning round questions to kind of get to know you a little bit. So Emily, we’ll start with you. What is a
Emily Johnson (02:43)
Yeah.
Jason Gorman (02:43)
60-second elevator pitch on what you do right now?
Emily Johnson (02:49)
well, just to give you some background, I worked as a teacher for about three years. and then I transitioned out of the field and started pursuing my master’s in instructional design. I’m in a few semesters and it’s been going great. And I was able to land an opportunity in educational publishing. So I’m working with the K to 5 science team to help develop different resources and content focusing on differentiation and just how to best support students and teachers.
Jason Gorman (03:16)
Congratulations on that job so
Emily Johnson (03:17)
Thank ya.
Jason Gorman (03:18)
quickly. That’s awesome. Andrew.
Andrew Fassett (03:22)
Yes, I am trying to create a flight simulator for the conversations that matter most. Because in the same way that like we don’t want a pilot to just get in a plane and take off, we, you know, have a lot of fear around the the conversations in our lives with people that are important to us. Right. So often because of fear, we don’t have confidence in ourselves, confidence in our skills, we d we don’t have those conversations. And specifically I’m trying to equip Christians with how to share their faith within like the context of a loving relationship.
Not just like a script, which is often what people are handed. It’s like it either works or it doesn’t, but actually giving people skills like active reflective listening, curious questioning, mutual vulnerability, right? Like the skills that are part of just like treating other people well, which we should be doing all the time. And then we have the opportunity to kind of talk about things that are really important to us. So I do that, yeah, through AI characters and AI feedback. And I’ve got a beta version of the app now. And, you there’s a lot I want to build into it. It’s really just early stages. But yeah, that’s
Big thing, and then I’m a chaplain in the Massachusetts Army National Guard and I’m trying to raise my two girls outside of that. So yeah, a lot going on.
Jason Gorman (04:28)
That’s great. I really appreciate the two very different backgrounds that you guys have. I think that’s gonna make this really super interesting conversation. Really excited to dig into it. So let Andrew, let’s stick with you. I’m curious, what do you love the most about your work right now?
Andrew Fassett (04:43)
So I think what I love the most about my work right now is what it will do, like the potential for it, right? The opportunity to scale training and to create a practice space that just like didn’t exist before, something that wasn’t possible a few years ago, really. Like you couldn’t do simulation at this scale to really help people do something that they couldn’t do on their own. So for me, that’s what really keeps it exciting when I’m like deep in Claude code and just like trying to get the thing working. And it’s like that’s not my that’s not my sweet spot, but like that’s what keeps me going.
Jason Gorman (05:13)
That’s great. And Emily, what do you love most about your work?
Emily Johnson (05:16)
Yeah, I th
I think for me, I think just being able to make an impact on how students learn. I think as a teacher in the classroom, you know, dealing with twenty-five kids, you’re running all around the room. So now to kind of be on the other side of things and being able to help those teachers and help create supports, you know, to have a more successful learning experience, I think is really rewarding and something that I’m really passionate about.
Jason Gorman (05:41)
All right, well we’ll stick with you for this next question. when you are at work and you’re totally dialed in, you’re just like in your sweet spot, you’re in the zone, what are you most likely to be doing?
Emily Johnson (05:53)
I think the biggest thing for me is, I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, but developing those supports for students and teachers. I think it’s just like the core of what I’m trying to do and just you know, really trying to provide those things that weren’t there for me. And I think also, you know, I’m kind of juggling the instructional design masters, but then also working educational publishing. So they’re similar, but they’re a little bit different. So I’m kind of trying to bring them together. So I’m trying to expand like my knowledge of, you know.
how learners learn and different authoring tools. So trying to kind of bring those together. So I think supports and then also expanding my knowledge as much as I can in these two opportunities.
Jason Gorman (06:30)
But is it the, just to kind of go back to the question, is it the like focused individual work of making the materials that is like when you’re really like in the zone? Is it when you’re doing the research? Like what type of work is the one where you just sort of get lost in the work a little bit?
Emily Johnson (06:48)
I think
it’s the the recently on the project we worked on, it was specifically for grade three. I was working on developing differentiation and additional supports and differentiation tips. So focusing on, you know, students that are not able to keep up with the rest of the class, developing what that looks like and how to help the teacher and help the student. And then also students who have different, you know, ways of taking in information and developing ways that
They don’t get lost in the lesson, but instead they’re contributing the same amount as, you know, every other student. So I think in that type of work, I really just like see myself reflected back in it. So I think that’s the one that I really, you know, get lost in.
Jason Gorman (07:24)
That’s wonderful. Andrew, same question for you. what what you doing when you’re dialed in?
Andrew Fassett (07:31)
Yeah, I think for me it’s that I love taking ideas in one spot and sort of translating it and reforming it and using it in different way over here. Like that sort of kind of being the bridge between different areas of knowledge and new applications is really something that I love about the instructional design field and especially the the work that I’m doing right now.
Jason Gorman (07:49)
Okay, we’ll stick with you for this next question. What is a skill? Could be work related, doesn’t have to be work related though. What’s something you are just trying to learn right now?
Andrew Fassett (07:59)
Yeah, I would say I’m gonna go with two quick things. One is like how to have a profitable business. Definitely work on that. That’s the jury’s still out. But the other one is I think AI engineering, right? Like in terms of like using Claude code, but using, you know, linear and you know, kind of tracking these things with project management and really kind of how to work well with AI, I think is a skill is still in progress.
Jason Gorman (08:23)
Two two really modest things to try to pick up at the same time. That’s good. Yeah.
Andrew Fassett (08:26)
I like to bite off small bites at you know.
Jason Gorman (08:29)
That’s great. Emily, what are you trying to learn these days?
Emily Johnson (08:33)
Kind of similar to Andrew, I think in a different way, obviously, but trying to learn as much about AI as I can and just how to leverage it and use it to help, kind of more as like a brainstorming partner, that type of way. I think also expanding my knowledge on technology tools like Figma has been one I’m trying to just like break into recently. So I think just trying to develop as much as I can about technology and how to use it the best that I can.
Jason Gorman (09:00)
Really telling actually both of your answers is that they’re really broad, and that you that maybe you both are in a place where you feel like it has to be a lot of things at once. I’ve had very interesting answers to that question on this show. Some people will say things like Taekwondo or making cupcakes. You know, like people have given me these very specific things. But I the reason that I’m highlighting your answers, which are wonderful, is that again.
kind of go back to what I said at the top, the reason that I wanted to have these conversations is because I’m really curious about kind of your mindset and your feeling of where you are in your careers. And actually what you both just said really says that you are like drinking from a fire hose in a way, right? There is just so many things to learn. I think that’s true for for a lot of people who do this work. but I I thought that was an interesting and re revealing answers from both of you. So I appreciate it.
So this is this all of these questions will be for both of you, but we’ll just kind of ask in turn. So we’ll start Andrew with with you kind of getting into our our full length, full length question and answers now. so I know actually both of you in your lives before you became a learning professional or doing the work that you’re doing now.
you saw something broken in the world that you wanted to fix. And I’m really curious, Andrew, what did you see that needed fixing? And how did you decide to make that pivot and commit yourself to fixing it?
Andrew Fassett (10:47)
Sure. Yeah. And it might be helpful to share a little bit more about my background here. I served I did mechanical engineering for my undergrad. So I’ve really used that in all my jobs after that. But
Jason Gorman (10:59)
Yeah.
Andrew Fassett (11:00)
then I went on to be a combat engineer officer in the Marine Corps, actually for about seven years, including being an instructor at the basic school where Marine Corps officers go for their first six months. So that that was kind of like one stage. And then I got out and I went to seminary.
And was really interested in like how are we equipping Christians to like live the Christian life and to follow Jesus’ teachings. And it was kind of within that setting where I was recognizing, like, within the church, a lot of the model has become, hey, hear this lecture for 20 to 30 minutes a week.
Jason Gorman (11:33)
Mm.
Andrew Fassett (11:33)
And you should be studying on your own. Like you should be reading the Bible, you should be praying, you should be doing those things. But in terms of the corporate activities, a lot of it’s like,
Hey, let’s do a Bible study or like a group topic discussion for six weeks, eight weeks, and then we’re gonna move on to something else. And it’s sort of like, is that it? Like I I I’ve been doing those things. I’ve been doing those things for a long time now. And like I’m not really seeing the impact that I’m trying
Jason Gorman (11:54)
Yeah. Huh.
Andrew Fassett (11:57)
to see with people. Right. Some people are changing, but a lot of people are just staying the same. And it’s sort of like, well, what else is out there?
Like what what have we learned about the brain? What have we learned about how people learn? What what technologies are available that weren’t available before? Like what is corporate doing with all the money that they have? And like what are they learning? You know, so it’s like those questions is what really brought me into more of the formal instructional design field. Like I’ve always been like the military’s training people, the church is training people. It’s like, but it’s like kind of the lens and the approach is different in terms of
Jason Gorman (12:29)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Fassett (12:30)
like within the instructional design field itself. So those are the questions that
that really led me to it. And it’s fascinating what I was able to discover, right? Like I was able to see some of the industry stuff like ELB learnings doing a simulation app or platform, right? corporate visions, I saw that they had one. Like so some of these like larger players in the field are creating simulation for sort of one off conversations generally. So I was like, well wow, I’ve had a lot of trouble equipping people to have conversations around faith. What’s possible now? Like
Jason Gorman (13:03)
Mm.
Andrew Fassett (13:03)
w what
What could be? And that’s really what led me into the work that I’m doing now.
Jason Gorman (13:08)
That’s great. Emily, very interested in your answer to the same question.
Emily Johnson (13:13)
Yeah, it’s very interesting how so many of us just come from so many different backgrounds and different ways and kind of just end up in similar places. So, Andrew, it’s really interesting to hear so much about, you know, what you’ve been through to get you to the spot. but in terms of something that I saw that was broken, I guess I would say, is just the
Jason Gorman (13:30)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Johnson (13:31)
way that students are being supported in classes. I think that
There’s just a such a wide range of learners and how students learn. And I just didn’t think that they were being supported the right way. And I don’t think teachers were being supported the right way. So teaching wasn’t the right fit for me, but I always love teaching other people. So I just it was kind of at a crossroad. I was like, I love being here and I love doing this, but just I didn’t know this is not the right fit for me. But I was like, I still wanna be involved in teaching and helping others learn. So I transitioned into instructional design.
I felt like the right pathway to learn more about it and learn more about, you know, how to create those learning experiences. And then when an opportunity came up to really be hands-on developing content for students, you know, I was like, this is my chance to make a difference, my chance to help those teachers, you know, when I was in their shoes and help those students and really create resources that could help them succeed. So to me, it was just that lack of support for students and teachers.
Now being on the other side and have this opportunity to make a difference is just really such a privilege.
Jason Gorman (14:38)
We’re both really talking about imp impact, right? And and I think if there’s th people people get into the learning professions from all kinds of other places and usually nobody
people know they want to be a teacher, right, when they’re in high school and when they’re in college, but nobody is says, I want to be a project manager or instructional designer. Right. And so we all have to come through some path. I think if there is one story that seems pretty common across lots for lots of us, myself included, taught for a little bit, recognized there were things I liked about it, but things that were broken about it, and there were other elements that I was interested in.
working on and where I thought I could make a bigger impact. And it sounds like you you both had a very similar experience in that way, that it’s really kind of a focus on a focus on impact, which I I love. I you both talked a little bit about your careers, other things that you’ve done before. And I’m wondering, love to hear from both of you, but I’ll go to you first, Emily.
What is something from teaching or from other some other job that you have where you were able, you learned a skill, you picked up something that was really valuable that you still think about now in your work, that you still use? like what is a skill that you’ve pulled forward into what you’re doing now that is transferred?
Emily Johnson (16:11)
I think just the way that I see education and the way I see students specifically for my work is just so, so helpful. You know, my most recent job, I was teaching science. And in science, students don’t have special education support. So, you know, students are trying to read, trying to write, they don’t have those foundational skills. And, you know, they kinda get lost in the lesson. So I think the core of what I understand about students and needing support goes a long way. But I think also I took a lot of like
patience and organization and a lot of like problem solving skills. So I think the way that I was able to handle situations as a teacher has kind of translated to my work, you know, being creative and coming up with different solutions. I think I’ve also used that to help me create learning experiences that are the best for the learners.
Jason Gorman (17:00)
Interesting. Andrew, curious to hear about your answer.
Andrew Fassett (17:04)
Yeah, I think that kind of two things. One one going off of what Emily shared too. I think like the interpersonal skills are so important, right? Like I think about my role as a chaplain too, and just like really being present with people, really listening to people, like really just being there with them and really understanding what they’re going through is I think is so valuable for our profession. And it’s not going away at all. and then I think that the other thing is really just around the value for simulation.
Especially from the military context in this in case, right? Because like when you’re preparing to go to war, like you don’t throw people into it, right? They’re not coming back. You know what I mean? It’s like you can’t you can’t practice the real thing and the real thing doesn’t happen that often, thankfully. so simulation becomes so important because you’re practicing for something that’s high stakes that you need to sort of work your way up over time to kind of get to that level and not just throw people in and be like, Well, I hope you survive, literally.
Like no, like you you have to do a lot of different simulations, kind of tactical games, sand table, you know, smaller pieces of the bigger kind of task and and kind of work your way on from there. So I think that I’ve definitely taken that with me. Of course it’s influencing what I do now too.
Jason Gorman (18:18)
I would love to just go a little deeper on the interpersonal thing. And it’s kind of question for for both of you, whoever wants to, and you’d love to hear from both of you on this, but what do you think for the work that we do, if you had to name the interpersonal skills that are really essential to anybody that’s doing this work, how would you describe those and how would you how do people go about getting them? And how do we how do we build these skills?
For ourselves.
Emily Johnson (18:49)
I can take a take a stab at it if you want. But I was just kind of thinking like, to me, I think the biggest thing is like having empathy and understanding and an just an open perspective of how people learn.
through my, you know, earning my masters and my position right now, I’ve just learned that learners are the most important thing when we’re designing different experiences. And if you don’t have the empathy or understanding or open-minded perspective to take that all in, it becomes very closed-minded. So I think being able to understand that everyone is different, everyone has different needs, everyone learns differently, I think is just so, so important in
designing those successful experiences. And I think that it’s a tricky question you ask. Like how do you go about kind of getting those skills? I think that’s I think that comes with practice and it comes with, you know, really reflecting on your experiences and just trying to grow, you know, you the best you can as a person and within your field.
Andrew Fassett (19:49)
Yeah, I’m I’m happy to jump in there too. I think along with that Emily Emily said is is practice and reflection. I think that those two are critical. I think that I might point to the value of love actually as like one
Jason Gorman (20:01)
Mm, mm.
Andrew Fassett (20:02)
of the most important things because one of the things that can come across with interpersonal skills is like, like I can do this technique. It’s almost like how to win friends and influence people. Like I can do the thing, but like and do I actually care about the other person? Like, do they actually matter?
Are they really a means to an end for me? Or like am I treating them like as a human being who I can put myself in their shoes or sort of understand what they’re going through? I think that that comes from actually valuing them and and sort of that that becomes the seed that then comes out in how we’re like actually treating them. And we do need to learn the skills on top of that, but that to me is like really the foundation.
Jason Gorman (20:42)
For somebody who is nervous about their interpersonal skills.
I don’t know, how do they practice? I mean this is this is something that I I I’ve so I have a I have a child who’s going into the workforce now. It’s very interesting to watch them, you know, navigate the the office stuff and you know, to just to talk about what what is challenging at work and what’s interesting at work. And I I think I I don’t know, one of the things that I think about
And I talked to them about is just it’s okay to put yourself in situations that are a little uncomfortable.
And do your best and then like you said, reflect on them. But I’m curious, I I don’t know what what like what kinds of things work for you? Like if you feel like you need to build that, you’ve needed to build that muscle. Is there like a concrete bit of advice that you’d give to somebody who’s nervous about going into a first job and feels like they need to build that up for themselves?
Emily Johnson (21:48)
I personally think just challenge yourself. I’m personally someone who’s very quiet, very reserved, gets really nervous talking in front of people. So even this is kind of like a nerve-wracking situation for me, you know? So I think just Yeah, I know.
Jason Gorman (21:59)
You’re you’re doing it right now. It’s a as you’re literally in the middle of it. Yeah.
Emily Johnson (22:04)
I know it’s crazy. So it’s, you know, I think just pushing yourself to to do those things and just go for it and just like it sounds cheesy, but like believing in yourself that you can do it.
Like at my work, sometimes I to talk in front of people, but I started hosting meetings and I started interacting more with people. So I think, you know, and I’m having such a great experience and I’m surrounded by so many wonderful people I can learn so much from. So I think, you know, by pushing yourself, you get more involved and you continue to, you know, grow as well.
Andrew Fassett (22:32)
Yeah, I think it depends on the context, right? Like I really believe that the platform that I’m developing like can help people because having like a space that people can practice that is low stakes is doesn’t
Jason Gorman (22:42)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Fassett (22:42)
exist that well in a lot of areas. But it in terms of like not doing a platform like that, I really think that I think curiosity is an important thing, right? Like people think about you less than you think about you. Right. It’s like like they’re not actually that mindful of you.
Like you’re
Jason Gorman (23:00)
Yeah.
Andrew Fassett (23:00)
in your own world, of course. Like that’s the center of your experience. But like for most people, they’re not as worried about what you’re gonna do or not do. They’re they’re kind of focusing on what they’re doing. But but if you can be curious about, you know, what can I learn from this environment instead of like, everyone’s looking at me, then ho, like maybe it can focus you more on like, that that could be interesting. Like that’s something that I want to lean into or find out more about and that can guide you and kind of keep the focus off of you, potentially.
Jason Gorman (23:27)
You have, as I mentioned before, you both have just are you’re either in a master’s program or you just completed a master’s program. And I’m I’m kind of curious about for the kind of work that you’re doing right now, masters of program aside, just thinking about your work.
and maybe the world of work more broadly for learning professionals.
How should we just kind of take this theme of preparing ourselves for these interpersonal moments? But more broadly, what is the right kind of training for people who do this work now? If you had to design an ideal program or a path for this, for the kind of work that you do now, what would that look like?
And I will go to Emily. I ask you Emily first.
Emily Johnson (24:29)
I think this is a tough one. I think dip sometimes depends on the person. But for me personally, I think building a path that has a lot of hands-on experience, I think is really, really important. I think covering theories and the basics of things is also so important. But I think that hands-on experience with actual projects is something that’s so useful. Cause I think when you start branching into, you know, after you graduate and try to get a job, I think the biggest obstacle sometimes.
Is that lack of experience? So being able to, you know, maybe have internships during it or, you know, opportunities to really be hands-on in developing things for your portfolio or maybe working with, you know, real companies, I think those are the things that are the most valuable for me personally. I think would be really helpful in terms of helping you prepare for this path.
Andrew Fassett (25:17)
Yeah, I definitely want to to build on what Emily said in terms of like real work and connecting with companies. I really think that I feel like there’s too much of a divide between education and and the industry, right? In terms of like why, why, why couldn’t the projects be real projects? Why couldn’t the education actually be run like a business that’s just like charging a lot less and working on real tasks and then just like integrating the the learning.
into that in terms of like a project-based progression for students. Like I really think that something like that could be possible. I mean the accreditation, I mean there’s a lot of complications to that, but I think that that project-based and even real world, there’s so much learning that could be done. There’s so many there’s there’s so much shortage of people that do what we do. So there’s no shortage of work. It’s just a matter
Jason Gorman (26:06)
Yeah. Right.
Andrew Fassett (26:09)
of connecting the pieces
So that they fit in in the right spot for people to develop and really like leaning into that apprenticeship type model, which I think would be so valuable within the instructional design field where you’re actually working alongside or with professionals. because I think that especially now, the early career field is difficult. Because with AI sort of sucking up a lot of the sort of mass content, like that judgment and the really discernment and a little bit.
Which is hard to develop. Like, how are you developing that now if those jobs don’t exist? Right. Like we need to kind of wrestle with that as a field.
Jason Gorman (26:48)
trying to trying to work out how to how to ask my follow-up because I I when I think about the projects that we have right at Jackrabbit, some of them are really long. And
When I think about well, if I were to have an intern on a project, I would be very nervous about giving them the right kind of exposure and opportunity because a project might, we might be in the middle of a project, or a project might it might be hard to give them visibility into the whole thing in the amount of time that they have. And I definitely, I definitely understand and agree with you. But
From a kind of practical on a practical end, I sometimes it feels like a challenge for me to work out what is the best, most appropriate, highest impact place for a student to come in and get involved and help and learn something really meaningful in the process. I’m really curious to hear.
What you what you both think about that. What it what advice you would have for for me or maybe any other business owner who’s who’s trying to think about and and want to have students involved in our
Andrew Fassett (28:10)
What are I mean, maybe it would be helpful for me to know just broad strokes, like what are some of the projects that that you are working on and sort of it might helpful to kind of frame it a little bit more for me in terms of like where people could jump in.
Jason Gorman (28:23)
Yeah, they’re really varied. And you know, they could be some of the projects are are very intensive discovery projects where we are interviewing clients and their learners, and we are developing prototypes, and it’s much more iterative and design heavy. It’s really the kind of consultative and design work that’s happening at the front end. Some of our work is like that.
Some of our work is
is straight it’s just production so we really understand exactly what what it is that we’re building like if we’re building a program for an organization and they need 30 modules we under s we’ve we’ve figured out what exactly a module is and what goes into a module and how it needs to look and what the standards are. And so we are applying those standards to new sets of content. And we’re in that case we’re just we’re just building. We’ve kind of done the front end work and then we’re just building.
Sometimes it looks more like straight consulting. We’re just
bringing all of our experience to the table, understanding somebody’s challenges, helping them get to a better way to reorganize themselves or change the way that they’re working, just to give them a new perspective and a new way forward, some some recommendations that that could lead to concrete changes in the way that they work. I would say that very broadly those are probably the biggest buckets
of things that we do. And that’s probably true for most organizations too. I think they’re all in one of those three modes, at least most of the time.
Andrew Fassett (30:05)
Yeah, think kind of one thing that I I would think about is like I wouldn’t throw like students right away into the work, right? Like that doesn’t make sense. But like year two or whatever, you know, I think that if they had the opportunity to shadow you and your team where it’s like they’re in the SME interview, right? Like they’re just there, they’re listening, right? They’re just seeing how you are actually doing the thing. Like how are you actually asking those questions? And then maybe you have five or ten minutes of your time afterwards where you be you can ask a question like, Hey, like why did you ask this? Or like, why were you trying to
you know, kind of angle here or what did you feel like you really got what you wanted? Like sort of like they’re just getting the chance to see you doing the work and to really like engage with you around it.
Jason Gorman (30:44)
Hmm. Hmm.
Andrew Fassett (30:46)
So it’s less of like, hey, I’m gonna add another person to that list where it’s like, okay, we were gonna interview five people, we’re gonna interview seven, I’ll give two to the intern. And more of like, hey, like how can I just I’m not trying to, you know, I I am making a sacrifice, right? Like I am giving up some of my time for them.
But it’s making them better. And then like once I feel like they are in a place where they can sort of do something on their own, then at that point I maybe do one for them and sort of work with them at the front end, help them plan and then and then they do a thing. So less of like there’s no one size fits all, but there’s an opportunity to kind of engage them with the work that’s, you know, I don’t know, an idea.
Jason Gorman (31:28)
That’s great. How does that resonate for Emily?
Emily Johnson (31:31)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think for me, I’m kind of thinking of a real world example. It happened recently this week. They had an intern who is just about to finish up her graduate program at our company who worked this summer to help develop an onboarding module. So she created five different courses and then presented it to the whole company. So to me, I was honestly blown away. But like
Jason Gorman (31:52)
Well.
Emily Johnson (31:52)
that type of experience is so valuable for her. And now she has developed something that’s gonna be used by, you know.
hundreds of people, thousands of people in this company. So I think that I don’t know, I think maybe having like chunks of projects or certain time periods where, you know, they’re able to work on something that doesn’t influence like a whole project. I think just being for me, any chance I get to be hands on is just so exciting for me. So I’m sure a lot of people who are, you know, in those programs and just like learning a lot about theory and the basics, any chance they get for like a little bit of hands on is exciting. So
I guess for me I just think maybe like a small chunk or just opportunities where it doesn’t impact too much of the bigger project is kind of what my mind was thinking.
Jason Gorman (32:35)
Super helpful. I’m gonna take that, what you both said, and I’m gonna I’m gonna apply that as I’m thinking about this in the future. It’s really it’s really helpful. because I I I I’m really aware of not I don’t wanna waste anybody’s time. I don’t wanna have a student it is it’s a commitment, right? When you’re studying to come into somebody’s company and try to help them and and I wanna make sure that if somebody’s doing that, that that I’m able to give them
something valuable in return. and I just get I get worried, honestly. Just for me it’s like this feeling of of worry. So anyway, I appreciate that. I will I will think about what you’ve said.
So you are both at more or less the beginning of careers in a field that’s pretty uncertain right now, as I kind of mentioned at the top. I’m curious as you think about what the opportunities are for people who are getting going right now, and what the threats are to people who are getting going right now. What do you put into those?
Buckets, Emily, start with you.
Emily Johnson (33:53)
I think when I hear this question, honestly, I think the biggest threat is AI, but I think it can also be a big opportunity. I think that oftentimes we’re really scared of it and scared of what it can do. And I think that’s very reasonable, but I think it can also be used to help. I think in terms of
the field that I’m working in. I think that being able to leverage it to create more adaptive learning, to kind of, you know, help students and help teachers that are in all different levels, I think is something that could be really amazing. But I think we’re like a little bit scared of it, which is understandable. So I think it’s AI, but I also think a big opportunity is just learning so much about it that we can use it to help us in the future is kind of what I’m thinking with that.
Jason Gorman (34:38)
Andrew.
Andrew Fassett (34:38)
Yeah,
I I think that opportunity for adaptive learning is really there. I like Dr. Philippa Hardman does a newsletter for instructional design that I really like. And one of the things that she talked about was how like oral examination was always good, but just didn’t really scale.
Jason Gorman (34:55)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Fassett (34:55)
But but now with AI, it can scale. Like it can it creates a new way for us to evaluate people more effectively really than we could before.
using AI, right? That wasn’t possible before. So there’s so many new opportunities. Like even what I’m doing right now, like creating an online platform simulator as an as a starting instructional designer. Like that was that’s like trying to create storyline by yourself. Like that’s not happening. Like you you don’t do those things. Like it doesn’t make sense. But like now more things are possible, but they also aren’t necessarily easy. And I think that’s where
Jason Gorman (35:29)
Mm. Mm.
Andrew Fassett (35:32)
the hang up is.
Right. Like there is so much more possible now than ever before, but it doesn’t make it easy. And I think that it’s important to understand that that distinction is there. It’s like you can have an idea and you can move towards it, but like, are you willing to iterate and sort of work through all the things to get there? And those things are still gonna be hard. It’s still it’s still gonna require judgment. It’s still gonna require coordination. It’s still gonna require working with people. None of those things are going away. And it and really at the end of the day, like the AI
If you’re not really shaping it, it’s just gonna give you the generic. It’s gonna give you the general. But like is that really what your audience needs? Is that really what’s gonna move the needle? Is that really contextualizing it for them? Like and those things, yeah, I think are are always gonna be important.
Jason Gorman (36:21)
In this is I think the very conundrum we talk a lot about with early professionals and AI, which is that if you don’t already have the expertise, it is harder to use these technologies because you need your expertise to direct the technologies in the right ways. It’s kind of a I mean this is not a sustainable problem. I actually
Have some fundamental issues with the idea that early career professionals are a little boxed out because of this technology. but I’m I’m really curious, and it’s obviously not sustainable because at some point you just people retire and you need to have you every every career needs new people coming in. But I’m curious from both your perspectives, what is
What is a way that you would give advice to somebody who’s thinking about getting started, right? Is really early, hasn’t, doesn’t have any formal education. Maybe they have a background that could translate into the work in of a learning professional, but they’re not really there yet. They’re they’re thinking about, man, how do I break in? And then they’re also thinking about, ugh, and there’s AI. And all of these mid career professionals and later career professionals are using it, and that’s gonna kind of freeze me out, maybe.
Any advice for that the for that person thinking about how to chart their path forward?
Andrew Fassett (37:51)
I think I would say I would say two things here. I would say one, like read and listen broadly. Right. Like the the essence is like when I was in instructional design in the first semester, they’re talking about constructivism. I’m like, wow, constructivism, like this is the answer. Like this is what should we should be
Jason Gorman (38:06)
huh.
Andrew Fassett (38:07)
doing in like all of our learning things. Like, yeah, just have more time and then people are really like constructing the learning themselves. And then I realized later, like, that ain’t happening. You know what I mean? Like, sure, like some of those principles can be incorporated into the learning, but like
Most of the time you don’t have time to do all that. So it’s like, how can you pick and choose? You know, there’s so many different podcasts and sources that we can have access to these days that that’s what helps us to get that judgment. It’s like hearing, you know, there’s a proverb that says, He who speaks first seems right until another trunk comes to try the case. Right. Like if you only have one way that you think of doing things, you don’t really know until you hear like a lot of different opinions. So I think that that’s the first piece. And then the second piece is like find your niche.
Right. It’s like for me, I I have a strong Christian background. And it’s like, well, wow, like I’m looking within that environment where I already have a lot of knowledge and information and connections. And like that’s what I’m trying to build out. I could go in other directions, but like I have a lot more of a lead up. I have a lot more of a runway already going if I lean into what I already know versus learning all these different tools and trying to do this different thing. Like the field is broad and you’re gonna land somewhere. So like
Why not try and start somewhere where you feel like you already have something? That’s kind of my advice.
Emily Johnson (39:25)
Yeah.
Jason Gorman (39:25)
Anything yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Emily Johnson (39:27)
sorry. I was just gonna say I think the open like having an open mind is something that’s really important. I think just being able to, you know, take in as much information as you can and also being okay with failing and something not working out and trying something and not really liking it, so trying something else, you know, that’s kind of what I went through. I always wanted to be a teacher ever since I could remember.
And then I did it and I said this isn’t for me. And then I tried something else and then I really liked it. And I tried something else and I really liked it. So I think it’s okay to fail. But I think when you do, try to reflect on those experiences and, you know, take away what went well, what didn’t, and just try to use that to help you work towards the path that you want and the career that you want. So I think just having an open mind and not being afraid to, you know, not being afraid to fail, I think.
Jason Gorman (40:14)
I love how some of those things you both just said kind of tie back to to what we talked about at the at the top. Some of the things that that you’re learning now, right. So you are both doing a lot of things, learning a lot of things. I would imagine you are both, well, you both said in this conversation, you’ve had to be plenty resilient in terms of of learning, getting into what you’re doing now, adapting to it, changing. so
appreciate that deeply. And and also really appreciate the advice for people who are looking to come into this field because look we do need you and and I I’m just gonna I’m just gonna say this to a person. If there’s one person that listens to this and they’re just thinking about I don’t know maybe maybe I do want to do this kind of work check it out. Really consider it. We really the world is only accelerating in terms of the amount of learning that we’re all going to have to do on a day-to-day basis.
It’s not going to be less. It’s going to be more. We’re all going to have to keep learning. And what that means is that we need people who know how to do this work well. Right. I I I think in I think there are reasons to be concerned in almost every field now, but I really feel pretty bullish about about the learning professions. I think there’s a a big bright future for us.
one last question, really quick one. And I don’t I don’t know if this is a good question. If it’s just a bad question, you just tell me it’s a bad bad question, it’s fine. But the question is, I’m I I’m wondering if there’s anything that you would want somebody who is deeper in their career to understand from your perspective, as somebody who’s getting started. Something that you think, well, for me, so I’ve been doing this a lot.
doing this a long time and the reason for this podcast is that I do want to understand other people’s perspectives. And so maybe you can just you could say it to people generally, you could say it just to me, like what what is important, what’s something important that you would communicate about being a newer professional, newer learning professional, to somebody who’s been around a little while longer. What would you want us to understand about your perspective and experience?
Emily Johnson (42:37)
I think for me is just don’t be scared of change. You know, I think that things are constantly changing. We’re learning about new things and you know, it’s okay for things to not be the same that they were 20 years. You know, it’s okay for things to change. and I think just to learn more about it and just being able to like adapt to the times. And I think even though it can be kind of scary, I think human connection is what is at the basis of everything. And I think I’ve learned that a lot through my, you know, graduate program and through my job that
At the end of the all we really want to know is that we’re kind of learning with like another human and that we feel that connection, you know, we feel that learning. So I think that just don’t be afraid of change and it’s it’s gonna be okay.
Andrew Fassett (43:21)
I I think I would say we want to learn from you. Right? It it’s not this there doesn’t need to be a divide between the field or between the new and the old. It’s like like we’re all in this together. And like we each have things to offer each other. So and like recognizing the people who have been in the field like have so much to share. And podcasts like this are like great opportunities for it to get out more broadly to other people. But even just
Creating that time for relational connection with people who are coming up in the field, I think is is so valuable. It’s you know, I think about I was in an online program. The only time I was there in person was orientation and graduation. It’s
Jason Gorman (44:00)
Ha ha
Andrew Fassett (44:01)
like it’s like, man, like those connections that are so important, the human element that’s not going away that AI can’t replace is is still so
Jason Gorman (44:09)
Mm.
Andrew Fassett (44:10)
important. So yeah, like we want to learn from you, we wanna be in it together.
Jason Gorman (44:14)
This has been an amazing conversation. I really so appreciate it. if people want to learn more about you or want to connect with you, where can they find you, Andrew?
Andrew Fassett (44:28)
Yeah, LinkedIn is a good spot. I’m not super active on there, but I hope to be more active. And but you can definitely find me there and connect with me. So happy to do that.
Emily Johnson (44:37)
Yeah, same here, LinkedIn. I only I only got it recently. It wasn’t as big as in in the teaching field, but I do have LinkedIn, so you can connect with me on there.
Jason Gorman (44:46)
Great. That’s wonderful. I just again want to really appreciate, really want to thank both of you guys for coming on. This has been such an interesting conversation. I really appreciate you both sharing so much about your experiences and where you are. And and best of luck with with everything. You guys are both starting really fun, interesting things.
Emily Johnson (45:06)
Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. It was a great conversation. I learned a lot.
Andrew Fassett (45:10)
Yeah, thank you very much. Really appreciate you just opening up your platform for us newbies in the field as you might call us. So, you
Emily Johnson (45:16)
Yeah.
Andrew Fassett (45:17)
know, I think it’s yeah, part of the wearing it together and you’re really living into it. So appreciate that.