In a career that began almost by accident, Stephen Hyde, President of UNC Executive Development, has spent decades helping leaders grow, not just in skill, but in self-awareness, resilience, and purpose.
When we spoke recently for The LX Ops Show, the conversation kept returning to one simple but profound idea: in a world of constant change, the human side of leadership is still the main thing.
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The Accidental Beginning That Became a Calling
Hyde didn’t set out to work in executive education. “It was less a conscious choice,” he said, “and more a happy accident.” A family member suggested he take a job in an executive education department- “a place,” they said, “where you’ll see how lots of different organizations work.”
He figured he’d stay for a year or two.
Instead, he found himself fascinated by what he saw: senior leaders, many of them accomplished and confident, coming back to the classroom not to earn another credential, but to keep growing.
That exposure changed the trajectory of his life. He realized that the work wasn’t just about management- it was about helping people understand themselves as leaders, and about building environments where people could explore what fulfillment, purpose, and responsibility look like at the highest levels of their careers.
The Spark of Leadership: Ideas, Courage, and Opportunity
As Hyde’s career developed- from Harvard’s Graduate School of Education to UNC- he didn’t climb by design. He moved forward because he kept sharing ideas.
“I was naïve enough not to know the right time or place to share them,” he laughed. But that openness paid off. Rather than being told to “stay in his lane,” he found leaders who invited him to contribute- and often to lead before he thought he was ready.
One of those mentors, Bob Fogel, offered him a challenge that shaped his philosophy: “Stephen, I’m always going to raise the bar. I’m always going to ask more of you than you think is reasonable.”
That challenge- uncomfortable as it was- became a mirror for how Hyde himself would later lead teams and design learning experiences: stretch people beyond what they think they can do, but do it with care, empathy, and belief in their potential.
Learning Is Human Work
When Hyde describes executive education, it’s not about case studies or frameworks. It’s about people.
Executive education, he explained, began in the 1950s as a response to a problem: even experienced leaders outgrow their original training. Their technical skills stay sharp, but their context changes- markets evolve, cultures shift, and the nature of leadership itself transforms.
“What makes executive education powerful,” Hyde told me, “is that it helps people see differently. It’s not about filling a bucket with information- it’s about reshaping how you think and who you are.”
That transformation doesn’t happen through lectures. It happens in conversation, through shared reflection, and in the quiet recognition that even the most senior leaders are still learning.
Listening as the Core Leadership Skill
When I asked Stephen what defined his approach to both leadership and learning design, he paused for a moment before answering.
“So much of it,” he said, “comes down to listening. Listening to where people are, to how they see the world, to what they believe they’re solving for. That’s the starting point.”
Listening, for him, isn’t a soft skill- it’s the foundation of strategic insight. Whether working with clients, faculty, or his own team, he begins with curiosity: What problem are we trying to solve? What does better look like here?
That same principle applies to leadership more broadly. Great leaders, Hyde argues, help people discover their next level of work. They don’t dictate it- they surface it.
It’s a deeply human process: a balance of empathy and rigor, of reflection and challenge.
Leading Beyond Hierarchy
When the conversation turned to organizational culture, Hyde’s view was unequivocal: leadership isn’t about authority- it’s about enabling.
“There’s no leadership without followership,” he said. “And the best ideas should win, wherever they come from.”
He believes that creating spaces where ideas can surface safely- where disagreement isn’t punished but examined- is essential to innovation and trust.
That doesn’t mean every idea moves forward. But when people know they’ve been heard, they stay engaged. They learn how to collaborate and lead together.
His mother, he added, had her own definition of leadership that he still carries with him:
“Leadership is driving change at the rate others can absorb it.”
That single sentence captures the paradox of modern leadership: balancing urgency with empathy.
Technology, AI, and “Keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing”
We inevitably discussed AI- how it’s changing education, and how to navigate its impact without losing what matters most.
Over the years, Hyde has seen many “next big things” sweep through learning- MOOCs, virtual classrooms, online OPMs- and each promised to transform how we teach and learn. Some did. Most didn’t.
AI, he agreed, is different in scale and speed- but the principle still holds: use it to enhance learning, not replace it. “Make the main thing the main thing,” a mentor once told him, and he’s taken that to heart.
The main thing, Hyde says, is still human connection- the dialogue, the peer learning, the shared reflection that turns content into wisdom. AI might simulate a conversation, but it can’t replicate the trust and vulnerability that make real growth possible.
“We’re in the business of helping people make sense of the world around them,” he said. “And that work is always social, always human.”
What Endures
Toward the end of our conversation, I asked Stephen what practices or ideas he believes are truly transferable across contexts- whether in corporate, government, nonprofit, or even K–12 education.
He pointed to something simple but profound: variation.
In his experience, learning stays alive when people are invited to switch perspectives- to move between individual reflection, group dialogue, and active experimentation. Too much sameness, and people tune out. Too much novelty, and nothing sticks.
That tension- between stability and movement- is the art of great learning design, and of great leadership.
A Leadership Philosophy for the Age of Change
The through-line in everything Hyde said wasn’t about theory. It was about values.
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- Listen deeply. Start with empathy before strategy.
- Value ideas over hierarchy. Create cultures where truth can rise.
- Balance change with capacity. Drive transformation at a rate people can absorb.
- Preserve what’s human. In a world rushing toward automation, design for connection.
Hyde’s view of leadership development feels timeless precisely because it resists trend-chasing. It honors something fundamental: the idea that growth, whether personal or organizational, begins with conversation.
When we finished recording, Stephen laughed and said, “You know, next time we should just do this on a hike in the Blue Hills.” And I couldn’t help but think- maybe that’s the point. The best learning doesn’t always happen in classrooms or conference rooms. It happens in motion, together, between people trying to make sense of a fast-changing world.
Listen to the full conversation with Stephen Hyde on The LX Ops Show or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Podcast Transcript– Jason Gorman with Stephen Hyde
Jason Gorman (00:00) Today, I’m joined by Stephen Hyde. He’s a longtime leader in executive education and specializes in building collaborative, client-focused teams that deliver world-class leadership development programs. Stephen is currently president of UNC’s executive development, where his team creates high-quality, high-end tailored programs that help corporate, government, and nonprofit clients drive growth and impact. Before UNC, Stephen spent nearly 16 years at the Harvard Graduate School of Education building its professional education organization. And that is where Stephen and I worked together. So welcome to the show, Stephen.
Stephen Hyde (00:33) Thank you, Jason. It’s great to be with you.
Jason Gorman (00:35) Great to have you. Well, let’s just jump right in with a big picture question. When you first got into this work, what was it that really sparked your passion? Why did you want to do this in first place? And then what has kind of kept you going over the years?
Stephen Hyde (00:53) Yeah, so it was less a conscious choice, more happy accident to get into this work. And then it turned out that it just kept unfolding and there were a lot of layers to it that are worth exploring that tied back to things I really cared about. I didn’t know that going in. started in executive education and marketing function as much as anything on the advice of a family member who had said you’re coming out of college you don’t seem to know exactly what you want to do. I hear you talking about these multiple different fields or places that you might want to connect. What if you started an executive education in this particular business school where you get to see what a lot of different organizations do and a lot of people in a lot of different roles and you could get a sense of who’s happy, who’s excited about the work they do, who’s fulfilled in the things they spend, the incredible amount of time working that we all do. And so, that seemed like a good place to start. Figured I would do that for a year or two and then move on to do the real work, to the real world. And it turned out that this was actually hugely fulfilling for me and I really enjoyed the purpose of the work. I enjoyed the scope of responsibility or activity that I got to be a part of. And so it just ended up being a fit in that sense.
Jason Gorman (02:09) And as your career matured, you started taking on leadership positions, you started to get into the work of building organizations that create learning experiences, online learning experiences, face-to-face learning experiences. What got you interested in the leadership part?
Stephen Hyde (02:11) Yeah. Yeah, I think I had a lot of ideas. And the things that I think made a road possible for me is that I was naive enough not to know the time or place to share those ideas. And so I would just go to share them openly and irrespective of hierarchy in that. And I think what I noticed around some of that is as opposed to being shut down or asked to stay in a particular space or in a box, as I felt like I had been through a lot of my academic experience, those ideas were often met with some degree of appreciation or I see that book behind you says traction, got some traction. And I found that really compelling. I think it closed a loop for me. ooh, ideas matter more than position, tenure. And if those ideas are, well conceived and they fit with where the organization might want to go, there’s an opportunity for people to kind of hear that, take it seriously and act on it. And so, that was pretty exciting, and that then converted into people giving me opportunity and probably well ahead of the opportunity I maybe deserved, either based on my experience or academic background or what have you. so prior boss of mine, who was the CEO of our group at the time, someone you also know, Bob Fogel, had said at certain points more than once, Stephen, I’m always going to raise the bar. I’m always going to ask more of you than you think you’re ready for than might seem reasonable. And I remember at a certain point that really made me anxious, but I’ll always be grateful for that because it let me keep learning and it never let me be comfortable. And I watched that tie back to what we did with our executive learners, many of whom had long successful careers, but they were now pivoting to general management or they were being asked to lead P &L and culture or a or a division or a function and that was outside their comfort zone and I was fascinated by how much of the work we did with them at Harvard Business School was about the human factors and not necessarily technical competencies and that also tied back to stuff I really cared about. We were helping them be their fuller selves while they were being better leaders and more effective managers. So I was invited to lead and to grow in those ways at the same time we were inviting our learners to do some of that same work.
Jason Gorman (04:48) This is a little bit of a leading question, but it sounds like, to go back to the question of inspiration or passion, it sounds like a couple things really kept you going. You had a leader that challenged you. But you also were coming into contact with your learners, and you were experiencing their journeys as well, right? You were…
Stephen Hyde (05:02) Yeah.
Jason Gorman (05:13) with them for a small part of it for a brief period of time. And it sounds like that was a source, has been a source of inspiration for you.
Stephen Hyde (05:20) Yeah, mean without question. I definitely think there’s always that kind bi-directional learning client and organization. In that sense for me, I think a lot about that whole notion that you get the kind of impromptu or you get early training and some of those early career experiences end up imprinting on you a certain worldview. I got to work with a lot of different kinds of companies, really big tech companies, pharma companies, communications companies, a whole range of organizations. And then focusing like an owner led organization program where these people. were really responsible for their own organization’s growth and innovation. And what I found fascinating is that so many of these leaders actually did give, time and attention to the people they interacted with, even at my, junior level, early in my career. And yeah, I mean, you pay attention in that context. I think as any early career, sort hungry learner with ambition, aspiration and interest is prime to do, everything from how they talk to each other to… the kinds of questions they ask, the way they dress, the way they kind of move through a space and what they seem to value or what appears to matter to them. And then to your point also, I was able to sit in class with lot of these folks and it was C-suite minus one, two, three roles, but pretty senior people. And so just that notion that these are… not just titles with a lot of responsibility and dollars under their management, they’re real whole people who have some of the same questions, concerns, anxiety, that recent college grads have. They’re still working out solutions to the world around them. All of that was formative for me and, helped me think about what it means to learn in the context of your career.
Jason Gorman (07:03) So for people who don’t know anything about executive education, haven’t been through an executive ed program, or just not familiar with that part of higher ed, could you talk a little bit about what that work is, what those programs look like, just to give people a sense of what you do and what you’ve done over your career?
Stephen Hyde (07:11) Yep. Yeah, sure. So I I think that, the particular space is called executive education. I think, a term that’s been used since the 1950s or before when these units within business schools began popping up. And the whole point at that point was that, these folks are, long-serving leaders often, at one level or another in an organization of any number of kinds, a lot of this came out of, the military and the realization that, strategy and our thinking as we grow in our roles needs to evolve. Our thinking about how to lead at one or another level or how to deal with problems of practice or what it means to lead a team or communicate or handle decision-making, that changes, and we might be 10 years out of an MBA or 20, 20 years out of that formative academic training. ⁓ how might we keep learning so that as the context in which our organization is operating changes, we’re meeting those new and evolving needs. So, this as a field ended up popping up at a lot of different business schools and then in places like medical schools, schools of education, law schools, and in some cases it became required, continuing education units or credits. In other cases it was more, you a way for organizations to make sure that their top talent was both recognized for their capacity to add value and given an opportunity to level up. It was part of succession planning in a lot of cases. In some cases it was a reward for outstanding contributions where folks were sent to open enrollment programs as a way to both acknowledge that they’re outstanding, high potential or what have you, or to recognize that they were being asked to lead at a different level. level, they probably hadn’t had all the experiences. They probably didn’t have the full scope or perspective to operate effectively at that new level. So in some ways, it was an active investment by organizations to hedge against, areas that a particular leader might not have had, experience or good formal training. So it was there to close a gap in those cases. I think in all instances, it is lifelong learning. It’s continuing education. not with a degree or graduate credit associated with it, nonetheless something that is meant to help people grow and develop. I think one thing that’s worth noting there is there’s always been an executive education, because these are experienced practitioners, a hugely important peer learning component to that too. So I think executive education… builds on what might happen earlier in people’s academic experience by making it possible to learn in this networked environment from your peers, with your peers, and then that peer group or that network continues on after whatever intervention you have in whatever kind of program you’re going through. So some unique dynamics to executive education, but something that the world seems to continue to value. Our organization’s been around 70 years. ⁓
Jason Gorman (10:10) Hmm.
Stephen Hyde (10:11) longer still out of places like HBS. And it’s something that organizations continue to invest in because they’ve seen a real return for their leaders.
Jason Gorman (10:19) Thank you, that’s very helpful. As you’ve been doing this work, you’ve been at it for a little while, what are the, we’re the same age, so I feel like I can say that. ⁓ What are the kinds of things that have really defined your approach? The things like the mindsets you’ve had, the skills you’ve had to develop, the tools you’ve used, processes that you’ve used,
what have been for you Stephen Hyde (10:21) as you Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally.
Jason Gorman (10:42) the keystones of your practice.
Stephen Hyde (10:44) Yeah. Yeah, I think, this is characterized a lot of different ways, and I think it’s something that has become a cornerstone, whether it’s what we’re doing internally in the organization to kind of engage people in the work and make sure that we’re doing high quality work and that we’re innovating or if it’s, engaging a client. So much of it comes down to said in a simple way, listening and really being willing to kind of hear about what someone knows, their frame of reference, and then defining what that next level of work might be. I mentioned earlier in our conversation that that’s like, what is zone of proximal development? What does that next level of work look like? I mean, that’s true at an individual level. it’s a principle or a dynamic that happens for us over the lifespan. It happens within organizations as they grow and change and work to address their markets as their markets evolve in various ways. It happens within teams. So I think that as a principle thinking about really that assessment or learning or analysis of kind of what are we dealing with here? What problem are we trying to solve? As my boss and close colleague Dave Hoffman always says, starting with that, what are we dealing with? What problem are we trying to solve gives a great baseline to say, okay, and then what’s next? And what would help get to what’s next? And that’s where the idea of kind of learning objectives or that self-reflection piece, if it’s about an individual and their learning, kind of where am I? And what do I need to work on? What strengths might I lean into? What are the things that might be gaps in my practice that I need to build? That same dynamic can happen at the group level or the team level. And then in those thoughtful organizations that are well-led, that kind of humility to step back and say, how are we doing in relation to our competitors, in relation to the markets we’re serving, in relation to our customers in terms of products and services we’re delivering. How are we doing? What’s happening in that external environment? And are there either, as a former colleague of both of us, Mike Tushman would say, what are those either performance gaps or opportunity gaps where we could get better? And so I think it’s listening with that frame of reference around what would improve What would it mean to to do get better in one way or another?
Jason Gorman (12:56) What do you call that? Would you call this this practice? Where did that come from? Do you think it’s it’s out there as a as a framework? Is it something that you’ve just really you feel like you have just established for yourself over the years as a as a critical thing?
Stephen Hyde (13:12) Yeah, no, I certainly can’t lay any claim to that. think it comes from long-standing practice in modern language. I think it’s sometimes framed as design thinking. And you’re thinking with that the end user or that persona in mind where it’s you’re beginning with empathy. I also think it’s something that has long standing in human experience, right? I mean, in the sense that as we’re growing up as children. our parents are listening to where are we, what might we need to know to be safe, to operate well in terms of our social relationships, what might be the next level of learning in terms of our academic progression and early literacy or numeracy or some of that early math. You I think that kind of sense of where are we, what’s our operating environment and what might we need to do to be successful there, I think that’s fundamental to being human. And maybe it’s true for all creatures, right? We’re always kind of there’s that stimulus response thing. But for us, there’s this level of memory. And so, I think when we bring us together, either in a family or an organization, that sense of memory eventually becomes something closer to culture and its shared memory and its shared experience. And often it’s saying,
Jason Gorman (14:10) Hmm.
Stephen Hyde (14:33) in the water cooler conversations or in formal assessments, know, how are we doing? are we safe? Are we healthy? Are we directionally correct in terms of the kind of things we want to achieve with our life as an organization? So yeah, I think at some level there, it’s a fundamental human experience that’s nested in different groups, whether that’s the family or a fraternal order or an organization or a nation. It’s that sense of where are we, what are we becoming, what’s next. Yeah, I think of it as pretty ⁓ inherent to what it is to be human.
Jason Gorman (15:10) I’m hearing two things in that answer. Please tell me if you don’t see it this way. But one is there’s a lot that you have learned that you’re drawing on directly and your own experiences, existing ideas in the world that you’ve integrated into what you do. But then there’s also a values part of it. It’s not just about. cognitive it’s like there’s a there is something like to meet someone where they are to understand where they are What they where they where they want to go where they’ve been to to figure out how to help them to get to that next step that they need to get to
Stephen Hyde (15:36) Thanks
Jason Gorman (15:43) There is a kind of values part of this, the value of collaborating with the learner to understand, right? This is something we do where it is a practice, but it’s also, I think, a value that we have. And the last part of what you just said was about… and very broad about how we exist as a species. And this feels like this value embedded in that. And I bring this up because of thinking about your journey and the journey of people who start out as an individual contributor, they do their thing, they have pretty much, unless they are micromanaged, they’ve got a lot of autonomy right over what they do and how it’s executed. And then, of course, as you develop as a leader, That changes a little bit. And the values that you have, the things that you want to happen, you don’t have direct control in the same way that you used to have. And so I’m curious, as you have grown as a leader and as have you’ve gotten into roles where you are building your own organization and changing your own organization, What has been like and what have you done to make sure that the things that are your values that you think should translate to the organization and are also the skills that you’ve had that should translate into the organization, how have you built organizations with these things in them when you can’t just directly do them yourself?
Stephen Hyde (17:02) Yeah, it’s interesting to reflect on that. I think there are a lot of things that kind of play into that. I think the first thing that comes to mind is this idea that it’s always a team sport. That there, as is often said, there’s no leadership without followership. And I think of it as even more egalitarian and flatter than that. There might be, again, good ideas that shouldn’t form where you go. And that is a principle. think best ideas should win the day. And it shouldn’t be about someone with titular power or the longest serving or the person with most seat time who charts the path. And so I think I’ve both long valued that notion that good ideas can come from anywhere within an organization and without. It could come from another place entirely. It could come from a client. can come from… something happening in a totally different sector or area of our economy or different industry and that goes back to that idea of listening and being willing to consider ideas and figure out what might make sense in our particular context and to that I think fit really matters and I mean that in the sense of like alignment of values and principles. and not everybody’s going to fit with every organization and that’s a good thing in the sense that there’s a balance there between people who are going to have some of shared values and people who might be outliers in terms of their values in relation to that organization. It might challenge that organization or the leaders within that organization to maybe step back and see things differently because they have a different lens or a different lived experience that can help. the collective think through what might make sense. So I’ve always thought, Jason, about creating a space where people can bring their ideas and where those ideas are, thought through on their merits, checked against data to say, it fit with where we’re trying to go, with what we’re trying to be as an organization, or how we’re looking to serve clients, or, what impact we’re trying to have. I think that’s one of reasons that I was given opportunity over time. I didn’t have too many of those fixed ideas that I wasn’t willing to test against other inputs or ways of thinking about things. Even here, can remember when I was going through the hiring process at Keenan Flagler, Doug Shackelford, the dean, was in one of my talks as I was going through the process. He said to me afterward, one of the things I appreciated is you said, know, I know I’m not the smartest person in the room. I don’t have all the answers. So that’s my take too. And so I try to make sure that I’m lifting up those folks who probably do have either a better answer or the right answer. And so they’re back to the idea of fit. think there was an understanding, at least here, that I was probably going to change some things, shake things up. but not necessarily way outside the lines of what would keep a culture that was effective, keep an organization that was already doing great work what it was or hold onto those values. So I think the one other thing that comes to mind given your thoughtful question is something my mom used to say which is, leadership is driving change at the rate at which others can absorb it. And I think that’s true. I think again team sport thinking together about where are we, how are people feeling about this? Is there a motive energy? Is there agreement? Are we aligned that these things make sense in terms of values we all kind of hew to to one or another degree? And I think leaders role is to push some of those boundaries and to make sure that you’re directionally correct in that discomfort going to whatever the, better looks like. But yeah, those are some of the things I have in mind in relation to either building an organization or, moving folks together in a direction that might be, that might make sense. Jason Gorman (20:41)
Well, I have to say your answer checks out against the spirit of the last answer you had. You said you value collaboration and different people’s perspectives and inputs and completely is exactly what your last answer was all about. So really, really appreciate that.
Stephen Hyde (20:57) Sure.
Jason Gorman (20:58) We are right now in this time and place where it just seems like things are changing really fast. What the world needs, what the individual needs, what organizations of individual need in order to be successful, in order to thrive, in order to move forward. Technology, obviously, is changing fast. I would say norms and…
Stephen Hyde (21:10) Yeah.
Jason Gorman (21:18) and what people want out of their lives, I think are changing as well. And I think as educators, this presents to me what feels like a new challenge in my career. And I don’t know if you experienced this way, but for me, this feels like a moment unlike any other that I’ve had in my career. And so I’m really curious, I guess, if you experience it that way, but also, you have this very well established way of thinking and doing things that you’ve just described and I’m wondering if you’ve had any recent challenges to those things and I’m curious to hear about the kinds of challenges that are popping up for you and then how you’re managing those.
Stephen Hyde (21:40) this incredible. Yeah, I think… The things that come to mind are those things that take off in that kind of hype cycle, that kind of Gartner hype cycle where that’s the next shiny thing. Over time there have been any number of those things that have potentially had implications for executive education, for learning at an individual group or organizational level. I think of the rise of OPMs as one of those things, these massive… online courses, that kind of thing. Or some of the other kind of tools and technologies where it might seem like, that is going to accelerate learning. That’s going to change the whole game. And I think we’re going through that period with AI right now. And I never want to underestimate the potential value of something like that. I also think the thing to pay attention to One of my dearest mentors and a former boss twice, Mary Grasso O’Neill, used to say, make the main thing the main thing. And for me, that was always about, well, like how does learning happen for people? what does it look like to create experiences that, enable people to develop at the level of identity, not just, as Bob Keegan used to say, filling a bucket with ideas or information, but how do you transform the shape of that? What does it mean to, in this case, center learning on individuals, where they are, and a lot of the things that have been time tested through all these different of shiny, fancy new possible avenues to learning. those time-tested things have remained the main thing. So giving people the chance to hear from each other, to learn in connected ways that are social, that are about working through an idea, whether that’s some content or a managerial practice or it’s a way of engaging people or inspiring and leading. That is best. accomplished in terms of thinking about what is real and true and good in that social form of learning where you get to wrestle with the ideas with your colleagues in the context of your organization and your culture. have that conversation that isn’t part of the formal learning program, but it’s you’re walking down a street together in the context of that learning, but you’re having an offline conversation. And it’s ideas being workshopped by people in relationship to their other relationships. And I think that has remained the main thing. Make sure learning is about people making sense of the world around them.
Jason Gorman (24:18) Mm-hmm.
Stephen Hyde (24:22) in conversation with others. yeah, there have been any number of things that are going to be the silver bullet or the thing that is going to make learning more effective or faster or cheaper. And the reality is people still learn together. They still make sense of the world from a place that has to line up with what they believe to be real and true and And so that, think, has been an important bulwark for us as an organization, for me, over time, in like, how much do we invest in this thing? how much do we let expand what we do or the heart of who we are as educators? I hope that gets to what you were wanting to hear.
Jason Gorman (25:03) Well, it sounds to me like what you’re saying is… Perhaps the challenge is that how do you preserve the things that are valuable that you have seen work and that your learners value in what you’re producing? And I guess a follow-up to that is as the world is changing quickly, is there and do you need to make any kind of special effort to make sure you are preserving?
Stephen Hyde (25:11) Hmm. Go. world. Yeah.
Jason Gorman (25:30) this core, right, that has been there, but as we know, as things change, everything, nothing stands in place, right? Things are either getting better or getting worse. And if you have something that works and you want to preserve and everything else is changing, is that a challenge in and of itself?
Stephen Hyde (25:37) Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I think, what has worked for us here and also for me over time is just taking what might have been implicit about what works and why and making it explicit. So a number of instances gone through a process of documenting that, through, know, conversations, those could be individual or focus groups. could be asking our learners or our clients what they value and then making sure that we all see that that that’s documented. And that could be done through surveys through, any number of
Jason Gorman (25:57) Hmm.
Stephen Hyde (26:13) So you’re really gathering data about what that looks like. So there aren’t assumptions or beliefs and you’re taking what maybe was implicit and maybe it was accurately understood but was implicit making it explicit. And then you can, having codified that, having documented it, you can keep solving for that even as you add in a new channel. ⁓ or a new experience, know, like an AI enabled simulation that might disembody parts of a learning experience, but still enable the core to be what it was while accelerating or enhancing some aspect of it so that it’s meaningfully better. Like, so there’s, think, there is a balance there and, there are any number of forces working against innovation within organizations, cause we like to be safe and like to be able to count on what we know to delivers value. So making sure that that everybody’s on the same page. We’re not going to let go of that because we know it’s valuable while we’re also experimenting and testing. Could this add value? Couldn’t we at least try this and kind of push the limits a little bit in this way and see if this new innovation or modality adds value? So yes, I think it’s you’re characterizing correctly that there’s a core you want to hold on to and you want to preserve that value. At the same time, you’re always looking for opportunities to create value. And I think what you just said, nothing’s static. Change is the constant in that. And our having our eyes open, listening carefully to all those different dimensions of change, and then innovating where it makes sense so that we’re both protecting value while we create it. Yeah, I think that’s at the heart of management. in the modern world. Otherwise it can be messy and cacophonous, but if who you are, what you do, who you serve, what matters most, and you make the main thing the main thing, that gives you the space to innovate safely and in a way that’s directionally correct.
Jason Gorman (28:08) Just a couple more questions. You’ve already laid out a couple things that I think could fit into this answer, but part of what I really want to do here on this show is to, is really identify things that are transferable across different places where people are creating learning programs, stuff, whatever that is, right? So it could be a… person in a K-12 setting, right, creating something for students there. Could be special ed specific. It could be in a non-profit organization that’s taking what it does and building a program to engage with its kind of broad stakeholders and donors in a better, deeper way. It could be for, inside a corporate environment. So.
Stephen Hyde (28:52) Thanks,
Jason Gorman (28:52) Organizations that create learning ⁓ exist in lots of different places. It’s very diverse. it would be great if you could just talk about if there is one thing or more than one thing that you’ve discussed that you think is very transferable into any other setting. What would that be and what would you want that takeaway to be?
Stephen Hyde (29:13) Yeah, I think there are number of different ways to come at this concept, but it’s the idea of variation to keep levels of attention, engagement high. And so, I think in the K-12 environment, we’ve tried over a period of time to move from didactic instruction or students sitting in rows doing individual work. to mix it up and whether that’s coming out of the principles of universal design for learning or it’s coming out of teachers recognizing that students just are more engaged if you have them work in groups or you add some degree of… a game-like dynamic to the thing you’re asking them to do and it’s not the same routine constantly. That variation helps people pay attention. And I think one of the things that I’ve seen as a consistent dynamic is that switching things up, and I mean that in a bunch of different ways, not just in terms of how we’re learning together, but what we’re learning. at a of a cadence and a pace where you’re spending enough time on it so folks can wrap their head around it, but you’re also not dwelling on it too long. And there I think there’s a real tension, right? Because I think we, in the entire spectrum of formal academic environments, we have a tendency to want to really make sure everybody knows as much as possible about this. And I think the tension there is, what’s enough so that people don’t lose their interest or their inherent curiosity or that energy and will to engage. And what’s enough where you’ve covered it in a way that makes sense here. Let’s move on to the next thing or the next way of learning together. And I think, really so much of learning is about, our capacity to keep paying attention, to listen well, to see the value to ourselves, the relevance. And I think at all levels of learning, early childhood, college, 30 years into a career, there is a real limit. There are some bounds to that. So yeah, I think that variation, mixing things up, using various modalities, shifting the focus of what that learning experience is. I think there’s under some value in making sure that you’re keeping things lively, moving, keeping some momentum as you bring people together to learn. that’s something that comes to mind to me that we probably could spend more time thinking about across the educational spectrum.
Jason Gorman (31:35) Thank you. All right, last question. And you are the first person I have interviewed for this podcast. So normally at the end, I will have a question posed by a former guest to ask you. But there is no former guest. So we can have you back in the future, and then you can answer somebody else’s question. But what I would love from you is what is a good question I might ask my next guest?
Stephen Hyde (31:50) Yeah. Yeah. and this goes to kind of like, well, what’s worth holding on to? What’s worth preserving? And I think, as the world accelerates, as a, that some of the dynamics that are playing out in the world, affect how we think and feel and interact with each other. The thing that comes to mind for me on this, Jason, is, is this the how in terms of how we work together. think I watch this a lot with the leaders we engage in our programs where they’ve spent the first portion of their career really focused on the what and technical skill and really having the T’s crossed eyes dotted around. what they’re focused on or that domain specific expertise. Later in their careers, they’re asked to engage others in the work and they’re asked to, create culture or inspire, drive in kind of a visionary way, the sense of, where are we headed? And then the how matters more than the what in a lot of ways, or it’s a different balance. And I think there’s such an opportunity there for us to think about, really emphasizing how we work together. I watch that play out in a very micro way within our own team. And it’s at the level of what kind of communication on the day to day in the course of our work, when things are great or when things are challenging, what kind of communication continues to nurture trust or mutual respect. what kind of decision making? Is it joint? Is it hierarchical? Is it best idea wins the day? What kind of decision making gets us to the best solution and kind of preserves our ability to work together to meet client needs or to get the outcomes we’re working toward. So I think the question that might be worth asking your next guest is something along the lines of, When did it occur to you that the how matters just as much as the what in terms of what you deliver? and that might be whatever impact or experience or value they bring into the world irrespective of products and services. I think the dynamic holds. How we work together in relation to our ability to deliver the Jason Gorman (34:08)
That’s fantastic. Thank you so much. It is really fun to have this conversation with you. I would love to have you back if you would be willing to do this again.
Stephen Hyde (34:18) would be great if somehow we captured the next conversation on another of our hikes in the Blue Hills, but I think, at this distance, this makes sense.
Jason Gorman (34:25) It does. It’s a little far for that. It’s also a little warm today for a hike in the Blue Hills. I have to say it’s like 95 degrees today in Boston. But we certainly have in the past had much longer, much deeper conversations. It’s just an honor to capture a little snippet of that for hopefully a larger audience. Like I said, I’d love to have you back, but this time… Stephen Hyde (34:29)
⁓ fair enough.
Jason Gorman (34:47) Just such, I’m so grateful that you made the time. I know you’re a busy guy. You’ve got a lot of things going on and ⁓ just really appreciate you coming on and joining. Stephen Hyde (34:55)
Well, I always enjoy time with you and have always appreciated the how of what it has been to collaborate with you and get stuff, good stuff done together. So thanks for the opportunity to connect in this way today. Appreciate it, Jason.
Jason Gorman (35:10) Thanks a lot, Stephen.